Fighting for God's Best in Your Marriage – II

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Jim Daly: I'm Jim Daly. Working together, we can transform our nation one family at a time. Support this ministry with a monthly pledge today at FocusOnTheFamily.com/family. This program is sponsored by Focus on the Family, helping families thrive in Christ for more than 40 years.
John Fuller: This is John Fuller, and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.
Gabe Lyons: That created a year where I now look back and call it the Year of Rebecca, but at the time it was just I'm going to give intentional time. I'm going to make sure on Saturday mornings I take the kids, she goes out with a friend and gets to dream a little bit.
John Fuller: Well, that's Gabe Lyons talking about a season in which he prioritized his wife, and Gabe and Rebecca are with us once again on today's Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim Daly: John, as I shared yesterday, I was able to have a wonderful conversation with Gabe and Rebecca at a conference in Nashville earlier this year. On yesterday's episode, they shared about understanding the ways your past is impacting your marriage. So, if you didn't listen to it, go back and listen through the Focus on the Family app if you missed it. Today's episode will include insights on navigating conflict over money, creating a support system for your marriage, and investing in each other so you can both enjoy life to the fullest.
John Fuller: That sounds good. Gabe and Rebecca are very winsome. They're speakers, writers, and co-hosts of the podcast Rhythms for Life, and this conversation was based on their book, *The Fight for Us*. We've got details about it, of course, online. Here now, more of Jim's conversation with Gabe and Rebecca.
Jim Daly: Gabe and Rebecca, it's great to have you back.
Rebecca Lyons: Thanks so much for having us.
Jim Daly: Rebecca, you share in the book about connecting spending issues. This is the wide variety of things that we're talking about, something of a sexual nature, and then you're talking about what made you anxious about spending money.
Rebecca Lyons: You know what's wild, we have found in all the marriages we've counseled that the top two arguments are sex and money. And because that's where we kind of find our identity and security sometimes in just the way whether that was a healthy or a very toxic version of that. So I grew up in a home with two Christian schoolteachers as parents. I got to go to these schools because it was free tuition, but definitely it was a more elite school, but I was wearing all homemade stuff and eating leftovers for lunch. I wore culottes because it was fundamentalist Baptist. That's when skirts and shorts are trying to be the same thing, but it doesn't work. Well, my mom's dad left when she was two. She didn't really know him or meet him until she got married. So she very much was a survivor. And then my dad struggled with mental health stuff starting with midlife. And so my mom was kind of a provider, primary provider into my adult years, teen and adult years. I watched my dad have a mental breakdown when I was a senior in high school. So the bottom line is money was tight. They would always talk about money being tight. We got double coupon Tuesday every Tuesday. They sent me to Liberty, which was such a gift, to college, but there was only money for the first year with a bunch of scholarships. And so then I was just going to have to go back home. Well, at that time, my first year after school, I'd made my faith my own. God had gotten so loud in my ear. He was just transforming me. And I thought, "Oh, man, I'm going to have to just go back home." And instead I just became that girl that went to stood in line at that financial aid office and I said, "I will do anything. I will work two jobs." So I had a job on campus, I had a job off campus, full loads to finish in three years to save more money because if you took more credits it didn't cost more money. I was just this survivor because to me money meant freedom. It meant I got to stay and learn communications, I got to do all the classes that were so inspiring, I got to be independent. Ultimately God was so kind to provide. And then God gave me a job right out of school and then paid for our wedding and just all the things. But what it money began to be the savior or the rescue for me, or the like if that's lacking, then the bottom falls out. So that was true in college, but it's not true today. But still I found myself going, "Gabe, how much did you pay for those eggs? What's the price per ounce?" I still was living throughout our whole marriage in a scarcity mindset. It didn't matter how much money we were making. I thought we can't spend that because maybe there was a fear that when this all goes away or the bottom drops out, I'm back to that girl standing in that line. I didn't realize that until a couple years ago because I felt shame. Why am I acting so dumb and controlling about money? And Gabe, in his mercy, is like, "Yeah, you need to go work on that," because he's super compassionate.
Jim Daly: But let me ask you this because this is one of the top things in marriages for all different reasons and all different descriptions. How did you respond to that, Gabe? Rebecca coming to you and saying, "How much did you spend per ounce on that?"
Gabe Lyons: Annoyed. Angry. I had no idea what she was talking about. We needed eggs. I thought it was just an overreach, but it was happening so consistently. I wasn't sure what to do about it except to keep some conversations just off-limits. We just won't talk about that, or I'll try to participate in your game. I'll remember what the ounces are next time and I'll try to tell you. Ultimately that led to us more faking it than getting to the roots, which once she did, it opened a whole new door for our relationship to realize that origin was what was impacting her. It gave me compassion for her. It let me know that what she is feeling in those moments is actually deeply rooted and comes from somebody who appreciates the value of the dollar, which is valuable to us and our family and how we raise our kids in a way that it wasn't to me.
Jim Daly: Rebecca, in that way, what... Gabe is describing it, but where'd you find that freedom? Where did you get the revelation of that?
Rebecca Lyons: I literally went to the Lord and I go, "God, why is this always the thing? Why does this have a grip?" Because that's what bondage is. It's like a certain topic just keeps coming back and you feel enslaved and you're like, "I don't even know why I do." Paul is like, "I don't know why I do it. I don't want to do it." I think that that happens in the bedroom for a lot of couples. They're enslaved, they don't feel the freedom to just confess like, "I don't know why I don't desire you. I don't know why I avoid this." If we could just go to the Holy Spirit and go, "God, would You please just show me the places of pain that are connected here?" Because this is deep stuff that we just don't really want to visit. But in the revelation of it, it was so freeing. I was like, "Okay, I'm not crazy." While I feel very crazy about the price of eggs, there now it now at least makes some form of sense to where I go. I have compassion for who she was. I ask God to do the healing work so that I don't function as an orphan versus a daughter spirit. That I don't function out of scarcity versus abundance. And that's a daily decision, but God has done the work now and there's not this constant chronic thing that we don't know why it's happening.
Jim Daly: Would you say you're attentive to that emotion when you feel it? Like you can capture it. It's kind of like we speak words that we wish we could take back. So in your thought process, when you start feeling that insecurity, you're able to grab it and contain it and not let it manage you.
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah, I think with everything, renewing the mind is a daily choice. It's like, "Lord, am I going to invite You, Holy Spirit, into my thought life right now that's starting to spin up into anxiety or control?" And that can still happen no matter how healed we are because the triggers of the enemy are still going to be there. He still wants to divide. We have a book out, he wants to divide us now. He wants to divide us after we led a four-day intensive. He's not going to stop because he hates family. He hates marriage. But as a result of that, as long as we keep going, "Holy Spirit, would You show me what I need to surrender to You right now and receive the grace and mercy?" And God has just been so gracious. It's kept us very tender, but it's also kept us together.
Jim Daly: One of the things I so appreciate about both of you is your intentionality. You strike me as the couple that if there's a problem, you're going to work spiritually to get to a better place. Not every couple has that desire for whatever reason. In that context, let's assume one spouse is in. They want to find solutions. They're desperate. They're feeling lonely. They're feeling all those emotions like, "I don't know this person I've married," and they're not getting the response. It's like, "I'm comfortable, let's just keep going this way," and you're not able to move. What do you suggest to that spouse to hang in and keep trying?
Gabe Lyons: Well, because marriage is two becoming one, I think the spouse that is feeling that and has a continued burden, they're feeling the sense of longing for their spouse but they're not getting reciprocation, the first thing is humility. It's prayer. It's all the things we would know to begin with. But the second thing is being willing to raise the longing and desire you have for your spouse. I think lots of times the divide keeps growing because one of the spouses isn't willing to just take the risk to say, "Hey, I need you. I long for you. I long for this to be the way it once was. I know I've contributed to this distance in some way." And if a spouse can take responsibility for the area that they've contributed, they might think in their own mind, "Look, I'm like 2% of the problem here. My spouse is 98% of the issue." We would invite you to ask the Holy Spirit, like Rebecca said, investigate my heart. Where have I built up walls? Where do I actually have a spirit of resistance towards this person? And once that's revealed, confess that to your spouse. Start with humility, confess it to one another, and you'll be amazed at how that can tenderize the other person's heart and just create enough of an opening to begin a new type of conversation that maybe they're not experiencing today.
Jim Daly: It's really good because we use so many clichés, "own your own stuff," but this is what that means. Don't project their problem. Don't talk about their problem. Talk about what you can bring in humility. Humility is always a good place to start. Let me ask you about your son Cade. He has Down syndrome. How old is Cade now and how has that impacted your marriage?
Rebecca Lyons: He's 25. We've been parents a long time. He made us a mom and dad. Honestly, that was year three. I was 26, he was 25. A lot of there's a high divorce rate with parents with special needs. God in His mercy turned us toward one another because we were young, we had no idea, again, rookies, no idea what we were doing. And that was actually a fortifying thing where our perspective shifted overnight. The things we used to think were important kind of went back burner. The things we'd avoided even special needs families, they became front and center. And so God shifted us that way. I believe God gave us Cade because He knew 13 years later there would be a Joy and this time we would get to choose Down syndrome, which is why we adopted our little girl from China about eight years ago. She has Down syndrome. Yeah, so she's 12. And so there are now our Down syndrome bookends and she is every bit her name. She's a joy bomb that goes off in our home. She's a cheerleader and she just makes sure everybody knows. And so we're full nesting now with a 25-year-old and a 12-year-old with Down syndrome and they have probably impacted us more and given us a vision of the kingdom of God than anything else we've touched.
Jim Daly: Describe that because most people don't touch this area, they don't have this situation. Why would you say that?
Rebecca Lyons: Because they are the barometer of our home. They can tell when there's tension. They absorb it and they're like, "Daddy be nice to Mommy." And then she'll go, "Spanky." Just kidding and of course she can get away with anything with Gabe. But they also are very present. They're not stressed about the political climate. They're just about what is happening right now, who's coming over, what friends can we be with, what fun thing can we do. They really keep us tethered in ways that I think sometimes the mind can spin out a little bit.
Gabe Lyons: I think the ability to be present is crucial with them, and that helps us. And also as Rebecca said, the word tether I think has been important for us. We look back over 25 years since Cade was born, there's certainly been limitations in our schedule, trips we can go on that some of our friends are able to do and we can't, or even not being empty nesters. We understand what our future looks like, but we see it as a grace that God's given us that's kept us local, tethered amongst the strong community, slower. We've learned patience. Fruits of the Spirit I probably would have never learned without this life. And so that's why we're grateful for it. I think God's used them in spite of us because we are both kind of hard-charging, we're both very driven. And the Lord's like, "I'm going to give you something that's really going to round that out so that you are near some quiet waters and some green pastures." And they are. They will smell the roses and they will take their sweet time. And it has been so good for us and our spiritual disciplines. And it's helped our marriage because we're both like, "We're doing this together." We said yes to Joy in our late 40s. We're in our 50s now. And so we need each other and that has been such a beautiful thing.
Jim Daly: It's amazing. I think of the couples that have adopted out of foster care or from overseas a special needs child. My admiration is sky high for you and for all the others that have done that because you're knowingly taking on the discomfort of what that means, the things that you give up. And we're so geared to comfort in this culture. That's our goal, let's be comfortable in our 401(k)s and everything else. Speak to the edge where the Lord wants us to be. The older I get, the more I realize the Lord isn't about making me comfortable, but it's what I want to lean into because it's comfortable. But it's something the church is fighting in Western civilization right now. Are we mature enough as believers to jettison comfort for the work of the Spirit? I want to talk also before we end about cultivating strong community. This is probably another one of those modern problems. We hit the garage door button, we go in, we don't really know our neighbors if we're honest. Jean and I try to do that and take care of the widow across the street and shovel the driveway and bring her something baked that Jean might do, but by and large we don't really know our community well. So speak to the strong things we should be doing as Christians in our community.
Gabe Lyons: And that's how marriages, I believe, survive during the season we're in and ahead is you can't do life alone. You do need other couples around. We lived in New York City for a season. There was a lot of couples around, but it can be very lonely if you're not with people that you're aligned with in terms of your worldview, your faith, how you're raising your children. And that was part of an impetus for us to move from New York City back to the Tennessee area was we wanted to be around a church, community, school alignment because we knew how much that would strengthen our marriage versus being on our own. But you're right, in this age, a lot of couples are trying to do all of this on their own. They don't realize other couples are struggling. And when you get people together in a small group, in a community, and you open up this is what Rebecca and I's experience has been when we share vulnerably what we've been sharing with you today, you start to see people look up again and go, "Wow, we're not the only ones dealing with this?" Because the way the enemy wants us to think is that your marriage is in a crisis, you married the wrong person, you guys have all the issues, those families are great. And what you know and I know and we've experienced is when you open the door vulnerably to say, "No, we're struggling too," that's what this book is about. We have a fight for our marriage just like you do, but we want to encourage you. You can do it and you can't do it alone. You've got to create community around your marriage.
Rebecca Lyons: And the only way you create community is create some form of overlapping thing on a consistent basis. Community needs presence, proximity, and permanence. So this idea of going it's not just going to happen like going to dinner once a quarter. So who in your life are you overlapping? So we had to get a little more deliberate as full nesters. We're like, "What can we do in our community?" So he started a men's Bible study every week, 50 guys. It's every Tuesday for eight years. It's not like a short thing. It's just a commitment and people come and go, but it's like it's always there. And when you open the Word together, that opens the heart as well to one another. So then I followed as a submissive wife. Three years ago I started one for women. We just met this morning before I came down. And the beautiful thing about opening the Word and letting the Word kind of wrestle in the context of a group is that vulnerability just happens and then prayer happens and then God's rescue happens. Marriages in this group have been saved. They have been restored, they have been healed. Wombs that couldn't have babies, they are now having babies. We call it the birthing room now. So this is just the beautiful power of just being this household of faith. And yes we're doing it in practical, tactical ways, but we're also grounded in faith and the unity of that. And it's just been transformative. We feel so tethered to community now in Nashville and that's just one small little way.
Jim Daly: Well, and it's such a great community for believers. It kind of fits, right? And it knits together. But you had to get up and move. That's a big step.
Gabe Lyons: Yeah, but in wherever anyone's at, what we have found in this current age, if you're willing to open the Bible and say, "Hey, do you guys want to get into the Bible together?" the hunger for the Bible right now is amazing. So I would invite any couple who's feeling lonely, I don't care what city you're in, find another friend or two because for me Bible study started with just three other guys. It wasn't a big thing. It was like, "No, let's we want community, let's seek community through the Word of God and how we're processing our marriages, our families, but also the culture that we're all trying to live amongst." And I think that has been the glue that's bound us together and given us the conviction to make the hard decisions that's required to be a couple that's going to fight for their marriage.
Jim Daly: One of the interesting things with divorce statistics right now, I think the *New York Times* said it was the "graying of divorce." So the couples that have been married 30, 40 years, the kids are grown, they're out of the house and they look at each other and say, "I really don't know you anymore and I really don't like you anymore." And mostly women are the ones filing. Let me ask you about how you guys have dealt with the early stages of your marriage, Rebecca, where you were supportive of Gabe and everything he was doing, which is awesome. And then it kind of turned a little corner where Gabe you've become supportive of Rebecca and what she would like to do. Describe that and the importance of it.
Gabe Lyons: Well, it happened for us as our third child entered kindergarten and Rebecca was finally in this moment where there was going to be a little more time during the day because our kids were at school. And it started a new conversation for us. I realized she'd been supporting me so faithfully and sacrificially for years in my career as we had launched our organization THINQ, and she had given a lot to that while raising kids. And it started to dawn on me that I need to give as much attention to Rebecca's gifts, her calling, her purpose, her passion as she's given to me. She was going through a season where there was more anxiety taking place and one of the learnings from that from Viktor Frankl was just understanding that sometimes anxiety is coming from unfulfilled responsibility. And I wanted to better understand are there things you feel like are unfulfilled that you are to do in the world that you've in some ways had to set aside because you've been so committed to me, so committed to our family? And so that created a year where I now look back and call it the Year of Rebecca, but at the time it was just I'm going to give intentional time. I'm going to make sure on Saturday mornings I take the kids, she goes out with a friend and gets to dream a little bit. Or she went to Parsons Design School for a couple semesters in New York because she'd always loved sewing and fashion and so she did that. So it was a year of her experimenting with her gifts. It ultimately landed in her realizing that her gift was writing and teaching and telling her story vulnerably, which ultimately led to her writing a book and beginning that journey. And since then, I would say in our marriage, our calling, we just both look at one another and we try to be strategic about the investment, but we try to find ways to support one another creatively during seasons where perhaps there's more opportunity in front of us for one or the other, but we do it in unity to try to make sure we're supporting each other so that it's not just her supporting me in my career, but I'm able to support her in the opportunities God's provided.
Rebecca Lyons: I think women initiate because they have felt subservient, they have felt like they are kind of secondary in priority whether it's desire, passion, dream. And they might be primary in caregiving, but other than that, what skills, talents, birthright gifts did God knit in them in the womb? Scripture says in Psalm 139 that He made us and His works were wonderful and He knit us. And then all our days were written and planned before one of them began. So if a Father calls out destiny over a son, He also does that for His daughter. And how do we even as a couple champion and fight for one another in partnership? I'm not called to motherhood more than he's called to fatherhood. So how do we partner in parenting, how do we partner in vocation both inside and outside the home? And that looks different for every couple. It doesn't always happen at the same time in the same season. But I always tell women, if you're leaving your marriage because you think you can't serve God or have ministry and be married, that's a lie. But it does require an intentional conversation with your spouse to go like, "We need to be on the same team here. We need to kind of work this out so that because if God's birthing something, then He's never calling us to something that abandons family." So how do we together partner in what this looks like?
Jim Daly: That's so good. I mean, this has really covered the gamut. I love it. You've touched on so many issues here. And I could just see it being so helpful for everybody. And it is true, *The Fight for Us*. I mean, it's about your marriage and finishing well and doing that well. Wouldn't that be a good place?
Gabe Lyons: Part of what our hope is is that couples who aren't familiar with some of the emotional dialogue or how to connect, that they'll just begin by taking first steps of just starting conversations with each other, turning towards one another for repair and listening and learning and beginning to have healthier conversations that can lead to them ultimately experiencing the joy that I think God's designed for every marriage.
Rebecca Lyons: We don't stay in the marriage out of duty or obligation, but that if we are committed to marriage as a covenant before God, then ask the Holy Spirit to reignite our desire and find that in that beautiful like that is for even people who've been married a long time and have felt like roommates. Ask the Holy Spirit to just stir and awaken that desire once again. Because if you're going to be together, you might as well really enjoy it.
Jim Daly: No, I love it. That's the pitch, right? We want people to improve their relationship and man, if you're living like roommates, get a copy of the book and start discovering how to live a more fulfilled relationship. That's a great goal. Thanks for being with us.
Rebecca Lyons: Thank you so much for having us.
Jim Daly: Man, I was so encouraged by that conversation with Gabe and Rebecca, and I hope it also encouraged those of you listening. Even if your marriage is broken or not where it needs to be, God can bring healing to your relationship. If our program today really hit home for you because you are struggling in your marriage, please consider attending Hope Restored. It is the most amazing program that I'm aware of. It has over an 80% success rate, and many of the couples coming already have divorce papers in hand. I don't know of anything doing a better job to repair marriages. Couples who participate go through a few days of counseling and are taught tools that transform their marriages, literally. John, you'll have more details at the end there for people to sign up. I also want to recommend you get a copy of Gabe and Rebecca's wonderful book, *The Fight for Us*. I love the title. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for being in ministry with us. It takes about 90 seconds to sign up. It's automatic and you can adjust it or cancel it at any time. And let me also recommend you get a copy of Gabe and Rebecca's book, *The Fight for Us*. I love the title. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for doing ministry with us and helping other marriages. It only takes about 90 seconds to set up that monthly contribution. It's automatic and you can adjust it or cancel it at any time. Going back to Hope Restored, one participant told us this: "We arrived hurt and hopeless. We're leaving full of hope for our future with God holding our hands the whole way. We learned that we are loved and known." And we hear amazing stories of transformation from those participants at Hope Restored and we need monthly donations to keep programs like this running all year long. But if a monthly gift doesn't work for you today, we'll still send you a copy of the book for a one-time gift. Just jump on board and let's do ministry together.
John Fuller: Partner with Focus on the Family, learn more about Hope Restored, donate, and get your copy of Gabe and Rebecca Lyons' book when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or we've got all the details at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast. And next time, we'll hear from British evangelist J.John as he talks about having a positive outlook on life.
J.John: You see, most of us are constantly being shaken, we're being stressed, we're being poured, but when I look to the Lord, I'm not going to be shaken. I'm not going to let anything shake me. I'm not going to let anything make me feel downcast.
John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.